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down on power?

Started by RDUB, August 22, 2021, 07:11:44 PM

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RDUB

Got a RR 6+ StepThru on order but I'm having some 2nd thoughts after reading about the likelihood of less power then the existing RR. ElectricBikesReview specs the RR 6+ at only 68 NM torque and RAD won't disclose the torque rating. However RAD proudly advertises current RR with 80 NM torque.

Also the hdden menus being truly hidden isn't encouraging either. Unable to increase the top speed above 20 mph? The possibility of being easily passed by a $1000 Lectric after reconfiguring their menu is giving me a queasy feeling.

Mori55

I'm in the same boat as you. I have one on order and thinking of canceling it and returning my accessories.
  I've read three different reviews and not one has been good.
   Then when you voice your concerns on Rad FB groups the fanboys start hammering you.

RadJohn

#2
Quote from: RDUB on August 22, 2021, 07:11:44 PM...ElectricBikesReview specs the RR 6+ at only 68 NM torque

They got that number from the Rad website and I saw it there when the 6 was first announced, but as you noted, it seems to have disappeared now.

Another misleading thing about the EBR written summary that accompanies the video review is where it says "Custom 750 watt geared hub motor offers 15% more torque than prior generation". If I recall that was an ad slogan Rad used when transitioning from direct drive to geared hub motors YEARS AGO, maybe a leftover that sneaked into the Rover 6 press release somehow. Any reasonable person who read that might think the Rover 5 is the prior generation they were referring to, and the new 6 must therefore climb way better, not so.

Mori55

Not just EBR but other YouTube reviewers are making the same claim about power and hills.

pqmarty

I have both a rover 6 plus and last years Rover 1. The Rover 6 plus does seem to have more torque for hill climbing. I find I'm using one power assist level lower in areas compared the the Rover 1. Both are step thru.  If you are concerned test both the 1 and the 6 plus on the same hill.

chris1683

#5
I have a RR5 and also had pre-ordered the RR6+ however after some careful consideration, I cancelled the pre-order. 

It is 100% true that Rad will not release the specs on their RR5 motor.  I have inquired and was told they are not allowed to release that info - simply absurd. 

I took the motor apart myself to clear up any confusion.  The RR5 (2020 model) uses a Bafang BFRM G020 350D motor.  The specs are readily available on Bafang's own website.  The motor is listed as 350 watts at a MAXIMUM of 45N.m of torque. 

I find it especially concerning that Rad advertises the RR5 as having a 750 watt motor with 80 N.m of torque.  It is one thing to bump up the wattage to peak at 750 watts but a 350 watt motor is still a 350 watt motor. 

Having that in mind, I assume that the RR6+ is nothing more than the same 350 watt motor with a higher amperage controller to give a slightly higher boost. 

EZRad

Received my RR6 on Thursday September 2nd in Eastern WA.

pqmarty

Ran my rover 6+ up "Sidehill" in Los Penesquitos Canyon this am. Its listed as 16% grade and is probably about as steep that bike will go, maybe a little more but not much.  If you've got to climb something steeper you probably need a 2-1/2" tire bike that weighs less than the Rover. Also I'm 70 so a younger rider may get up something steeper, I'd like to hear.

mrpgray

We have 2 RR6+, ST/SO.  We got these ebikes knowing their too heavy for steep hills so we avoid that kind of trekking. But we do moderate grade hills that would be tough on a regular bike,  without a problem. The power issue I get. But I want to stay Class II so I can have a PAS AND a throttle with access to all bike trails/paths. Our bikes do all this without difficulties. We ride comfortably for HOURS. As for power,  we have plenty for our needs. Some need more power for other kinds of riding. Then there's the fact no one likes to be bamboozled. Understood. All I can say is I'm satisfied with my purchases. We have had great outings and are planning more. To each his own.

Eric7

#9
Quote from: chris1683 on September 02, 2021, 01:32:04 PM
I have a RR5 and also had pre-ordered the RR6+ however after some careful consideration, I cancelled the pre-order. 

It is 100% true that Rad will not release the specs on their RR5 motor.  I have inquired and was told they are not allowed to release that info - simply absurd. 

I took the motor apart myself to clear up any confusion.  The RR5 (2020 model) uses a Bafang BFRM G020 350D motor.  The specs are readily available on Bafang's own website.  The motor is listed as 350 watts at a MAXIMUM of 45N.m of torque. 

I find it especially concerning that Rad advertises the RR5 as having a 750 watt motor with 80 N.m of torque.  It is one thing to bump up the wattage to peak at 750 watts but a 350 watt motor is still a 350 watt motor. 

Having that in mind, I assume that the RR6+ is nothing more than the same 350 watt motor with a higher amperage controller to give a slightly higher boost.

I am like Rad Power Bikes a lot.  I am not a blind fan though.

I would say if the motor can handle 750 watts continuously, and Rad would warranty their motors, then it is a 750 watt motor regardless of what Bafang says.  Maybe Bafang intentionally underate their motor for legal reasons. Maybe Bafang wants to make a 1000 watt motor sell that as a 750 watt motor.  Thus the 750-watt motor has to be labeled at a lower wattage. That is Bafang's choice.

Naturally, the people selling motors has a financial incentive to say it is not a real 750 watt motor - so you will buy the aftermarket motor.  They probably want to advertise a 1000 watt or more motor but cannot do so because of legal reasons.

If you can run 750 watts all day, and Rad will replace the motor if it burns up, then there is no functional difference even though the motor has 350 stamped on it.

<<I did not say anything about torque or efficiency.  Those are different issues.>>

DickB

Quote from: chris1683 on September 02, 2021, 01:32:04 PM
I took the motor apart myself to clear up any confusion.  The RR5 (2020 model) uses a Bafang BFRM G020 350D motor.  The specs are readily available on Bafang's own website.  The motor is listed as 350 watts at a MAXIMUM of 45N.m of torque.

Rad says:
"750W brushless geared hub motor with 80 Nm of torque, 5:1 planetary gear reduction. Stated wattage is the manufacturer's rated power capacity. Actual power-to-ground wattage is under 750W to ensure ebike regulatory compliance and may vary depending on riding conditions."

Somebody's not right.

Eric7

Quote from: DickB on January 17, 2022, 04:06:30 PM
Quote from: chris1683 on September 02, 2021, 01:32:04 PM
I took the motor apart myself to clear up any confusion.  The RR5 (2020 model) uses a Bafang BFRM G020 350D motor.  The specs are readily available on Bafang's own website.  The motor is listed as 350 watts at a MAXIMUM of 45N.m of torque.

Rad says:
"750W brushless geared hub motor with 80 Nm of torque, 5:1 planetary gear reduction. Stated wattage is the manufacturer's rated power capacity. Actual power-to-ground wattage is under 750W to ensure ebike regulatory compliance and may vary depending on riding conditions."

Somebody's not right.

The simple explanation is that Bafang is applying 350 watts to test its motor.  Rad is applying 750 watts to test its motor.  It is hard to say if the two motors are the same because Rad probably buy so much they have a special run for Rad. I am not taking sides on this one.  The two motors can be the same, or they can be different.  But even if it is the same motor, sending more than twice the wattage (750 vs 350) can explain the difference.  The numbers do not surprise me.

Radding Along

Eric7 is correct. The Bafang motor is rated for 350 watts on the labeling, but can handle much higher watts. Rad had the motor built from Bafang to run 750 watts. There is a video from someone high up at Rad who explains the difference.

This topic seems to come up here every few months. Maybe it needs to be a sticky at the top so people can stop questioning the topic.

If anyone has ever ridden a 350 watt bike, they would know Rad's bikes are 750 watts. There is a noticeable difference between the two.

JimInPT

#13
I think it was Altema who posted a thread here about experiments he ran on the standard "750w" Rad motor last year (the motor for almost all of the previous models, maybe same motor in the new ones, don't know).  I believe he was boosting both amperage and voltage to hotrod his bike and even though he actually attempted to burn out one of the motors to find its limits, he was unable to do so, even applying a continuous 1,000+ watts, up to 1,600.  Said the motor was fine after the torture testing.

After reading his post, I've come to question why anybody would want to bother with the hassle and expense of swapping to a "higher wattage" motor unless the stock unit just up and dies.

So I have no fear about putting the Bolton 35A (1,500+ watt) controller onto my MiniST soon.  Of course, it will rarely see anywhere near that much current, but it'll be nice to have now and then to assist me on some of the monster local hills where the stock drivetrain struggles.
Shucks Ma'am, I'm no "Hero Member", I just like to wear this cape.

Eric7

#14
In answer to JimInPT.  Here is the link to the long discussion:

https://www.radowners.com/index.php?topic=523.0

This is my latest thoughts:

Guessing here.  I think the manufacturer want to sell the motor as is. No warranty of any kind.  So they put 350 on it ensuring the consumer will never damage the motor even in the middle of the desert.  Anyone with a Rad Power Bike has already violated the manufacturer's guarantee by applying 750 watts of power so there is no going back to Bafang.  The Bafang warranty is over - you have violated it.  The only solution is to go to Rad who is self warranting the motor.  Once again, this is my guessing.  I've seen other manufacturer self warranting bikes.  Like the Rohloff hub is not designed for middrives but some companies sell the combination and self warranty the combo.

Many power ratings for cars and motorcycles are also based on peak power.  A car or motorcycle is not designed to run at maximum horsepower all day long.  So the power labeling seems consistent at least with a motorbike and with a car.  And it has been reported that it will run continuously at 750 watt.  So there is no problem with false advertising.

The other parts of the bike is rated similarly. There is no hard standards for rating because the real world is not like this. I think if you are willing to go no more than 10 mph you can claim a bigger range. If you discharge the battery extremely slowly you can claim a bigger battery.

I personally bought the bike because of the attractive price (i.e., it is cheap).  This is about what I expected at this price point and I think I got a good deal.  There are no other choices at least for me.

One more point.  I am guessing but I don't think Rad will ever replace your hub drive even if you complain.  First the warranty is only one year.  Second, Rad can't afford to replace all the bikes with a bigger hub motor - they will go broke.  Third, how would you complain?  I ran the bike all day at 750 watts but it is still running??  How do you prove it is not 750 watts based on some evidence other than the "350" marked on an internal part. 

So it is not going to change.  Maybe you can discourage buyers - but what are the alternatives bicycles at this price point and do the alternatives provide "true" 750 watts hubs?  And even if there are alternatives, maybe service and the size of the company (would they be around in 2 years) would be a consideration.

If you are truly unhappy I don't think there is a solution.