OK, so let me start by saying I love my Radrunner Plus and love to ride. The whole e-bike industry has been a great thing for many riders. But I am trying to understand why so many owners are ready to mod their bikes as soon as they get them to make them go faster. I know, speed is fun, biking is fun. But if you want something that goes really, really fast - buy something designed for that speed, and drive it in a safe and legal way. Every time I turn around I see cities and towns banning e-bikes on bike paths and trails because riders are not respecting speed limits and are causing safety concerns. As an e-bike community, let's make sure our choices and behaviors support the industry and encourage local communities to embrace and encourage e-bike ridership rather than find new reasons to ban us!
I'm sure this post may kick up some strong opinions. I'm all ears and welcome respectful and constructive exchange.
Quote from: mtngrl on February 17, 2022, 08:03:27 AM
OK, so let me start by saying I love my Radrunner Plus and love to ride. The whole e-bike industry has been a great thing for many riders. But I am trying to understand why so many owners are ready to mod their bikes as soon as they get them to make them go faster. I know, speed is fun, biking is fun. But if you want something that goes really, really fast - buy something designed for that speed, and drive it in a safe and legal way. Every time I turn around I see cities and towns banning e-bikes on bike paths and trails because riders are not respecting speed limits and are causing safety concerns. As an e-bike community, let's make sure our choices and behaviors support the industry and encourage local communities to embrace and encourage e-bike ridership rather than find new reasons to ban us!
I'm sure this post may kick up some strong opinions. I'm all ears and welcome respectful and constructive exchange.
I agree with you. Some people love to tinker and mod things. I have no problem people doing that but some don't follow the rules and laws. It's these few that will mess it up for the rest of us. I have a Rdadrover 5 and I personally have no desire to go faster than stock. If I need to go faster I might as well get a motorcycle.
Jim
To me it is power, not speed that is an issue to me. the EU limit is 25kph (15.5mph) I have no problem with that as i only need assistance, i can use leg power to get faster, but limiting the motor to 250w is far too weak for such a heavy bike (Radrunner) and rider (13.8 stone) surely a minimum of 750w or 500w is more desirable for pedalecs to be of any use in hilly areas?
Quote from: machina77 on February 20, 2022, 10:33:16 AM
To me it is power, not speed that is an issue to me. the EU limit is 25kph (15.5mph) I have no problem with that as i only need assistance, i can use leg power to get faster, but limiting the motor to 250w is far too weak for such a heavy bike (Radrunner) and rider (13.8 stone) surely a minimum of 750w or 500w is more desirable for pedalecs to be of any use in hilly areas?
Hello and question please. @machina77
Are the Rad and all E-Bikes sold in Europe limited to 250 watts ?
Does Rad sell a different type of bike in Europe to accommodate the European market ?
Are the Rad's sold in Europe not capable of increasing their power by the customer within the display ?
Seriously, what would happened if a European had a more powerful bike ? Get arrested / fined by the bike police ?
I agree with you mtngrl.
The modding and tinkering aspect is kind of fun to do to bikes. I have a mini 4 and Runner Plus but I have not modded any to increase the power.
Pretty much All cars can exceed the speed limit for pretty much everyone respects the posted speed limit. So I guess it's a matter of choice for the speed someone wants to travel at.
My bikes are the way I get around and I have to admit I enjoy the slower pace of life on a bike. Here in Boise there are a lot of people who ride bikes and I get past by non e-bikes all the time.
There are also a lot of e-bikes and I see most of them ride at a respectful speed. I do know one person who has an e-bike capable of 55 mph who rides on the road. Him and I have had some pretty long discussions about this.
I know four people who either race or ride mountain bikes recreationally who hated e-bikes and now those four people own at least one and are thoroughly enjoying it for commuting. It helps not arriving at work while sweaty during the summer.
The most important thing I think is e-bikes allow many people who would never ride a regular bike to be out there on a bicycle and it seems like these people spend more and more time on their bikes replacing trips with their cars. Less cars on the road is always a better thing.
If everyone is respectful on their e-bikes then they will be no reason to have additional rules and regulations regarding e-bikes.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Quote from: jcvdd on February 20, 2022, 12:12:24 PM
Quote from: machina77 on February 20, 2022, 10:33:16 AM
To me it is power, not speed that is an issue to me. the EU limit is 25kph (15.5mph) I have no problem with that as i only need assistance, i can use leg power to get faster, but limiting the motor to 250w is far too weak for such a heavy bike (Radrunner) and rider (13.8 stone) surely a minimum of 750w or 500w is more desirable for pedalecs to be of any use in hilly areas?
Hello and question please. @machina77
Are the Rad and all E-Bikes sold in Europe limited to 250 watts ?
Does Rad sell a different type of bike in Europe to accommodate the European market ?
Are the Rad's sold in Europe not capable of increasing their power by the customer within the display ?
Seriously, what would happened if a European had a more powerful bike ? Get arrested / fined by the bike police ?
Ebikes in europe are split into groups, 250w @25kph is the legal limit, throttle is limited to 6kph and this class of ebike is called an EAPC (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle) you can ride these anywhere that a bicycle can, and need not licence, 14 years minimum age. Certain states in the EU allow faster more powerful bikes, yet her in the UK (EU rules on EAPC were kept after Brexit!) anything above the legal 250w and 25kph is classed as a motorcycle and you are required to have the bike insured, taxed have a certificate of road worthiness and be over 17 with a minimum provisional licence (learners licence) and complete a road theory test and have a CBT (compulsory Basic Training for motorcycles) or a full bike licence. Recently in the UK full throttles were legalised, but the bike must be tested by DVSA and have a certificate issued. Failure to follow these rules would have you arrested and charged with riding a motor vehicle without insurance MOT or license, and could expect at the very least a huge fine and points on your drivers licence.
here is a link to the UK Govt. website RE; ebikes. https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules (https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules)
I agree with mtngrl. In fact this is a topic that I've wanted to bring up in some of the motorcycle forums I belong to. It looks like some of the same things are happening in the ebike world that happened in motorcycling.
There are those that buy a motorcycle and their first thought is "how can I modify this to go faster?". They are the ones that speed through traffic, lane split, zip past me on the interstate and ride through residential areas at twice the speed limit. I assume it's an adrenaline thing and a rebellious nature. But those are the people that give us a bad name. As well as end up in some horrendous accidents.
Whether I'm on my motorcycle or ebike, I follow the rules of the road, am mindful of other riders/drivers around me, keep safe distances and speeds, and just enjoy the ride. Yes, to some that's dull and boring. But, I'm confident that I'll be riding many years because of my philosophies.
I expect that as long as there are people who think that the ONLY important thing is to push the limits, there will be unsafe riders on bicycles, ebikes, motorcycles, scooters, skateboards and anything else that moves.
We are all accountable and responsible for our actions on the road.
The biggest danger is missing out on the fun (sort of joking, of course).
I am keeping my bike stock with no enhancements to power or speed. I ride around 12-15 mph and enjoy being out. I don't do anything to prolong battery life. I don't want to think that hard. If my battery goes, I'll buy another one. If a regular bike or another ebike passes me, I am OK. When the tire wears out, I'll buy what is available. I put some slime in my tires but I don't do research on which one is the best - I just use something. I don't ride with a repair kit. If I break down, I plan to hail a car service (an SUV) and get a lift home. I stop for coffee shops. The ride always end up costing more money on foods and snacks :) I slow to a crawl when there are kids sharing the road with me.
I don't mind making friends but I am not out to make friends, impress people, or even do group rides. I am not trying to make a goal of so many miles or how fast. Sometimes I bring a sketch pad and some pencils but most of the time I take pictures for future paintings. The bike is kept in top shape but I am not sentimental, when it is worn out, I'll get a better one.
I am grateful I can still afford these small luxuries - of not worrying too much.
@machina77
Thanks for the information and the linky. I had no idea that Europe had such stringent laws and regulations regarding bicycles.
Here in the States, I pay for something called uninsured motorist insurance which is in addition to regular car insurance
which essentially buys insurance for those who choose not to properly insure themselves.
Glad that Europe forces all motorist to properly insure themselves and to be financially responsible for themselves.
Be Safe.
I'm guessing some communities were going to ban ebikes on paths regardless of mods or speeding. And likely banned all bikes, since you dont need an ebike to speed. I could easily keep up with traffic on my old 10 speed. Speeding might not even be the reason for the ban, some people just dont want bikes on their walking paths.
That said, its important to advocate for the bike community when anything is being discussed regarding biking in your area. Whether its talk of bans, or improvements and more paths. Make sure you put the responsibility for bad behavior on the rider, not the type of bike the rider was using. All cars are capable of speeding, but its the driver that is responsible for it, not the car.
Quote from: jcvdd on February 23, 2022, 11:28:48 AM
@machina77
Thanks for the information and the linky. I had no idea that Europe had such stringent laws and regulations regarding bicycles.
Here in the States, I pay for something called uninsured motorist insurance which is in addition to regular car insurance
which essentially buys insurance for those who choose not to properly insure themselves.
Glad that Europe forces all motorist to properly insure themselves and to be financially responsible for themselves.
Be Safe.
You're welcome. Stay safe!
I mod my bike, but I went out of my way to keep it 100% legal where I ride. More legal than most e-bike manufacturers, as a matter of fact. I also happen to be one of the courteous riders that averages 11 to 13 mph, and slows down further when around pedestrians. Oddly, the riders doing the big violations where I live are regular bikers, not on e-bikes. Here I'm being cautious and friendly, and the guys in spandex are blasting past children at 30mph on a curved trail through the woods. It's the bad behaving riders, not the machines, that will get us e-bikers banned.
So why mod? In many cases it's to improve range and hill climbing capability. In other cases it's to improve safety in areas where you have no choice. Cruising along on a family trail where people are walking dogs and have kids in strollers, you need to go slow to fit in with the traffic. But there are times when you are faced with no bike lanes, no shoulder, and cars going 30mph who think you have no right to be on "their" road, and they WILL run you down and say it's your fault for being in the way. In those situations, going 19.5 mph is a death wish, and I can go faster on my regular bike. My e-bike specifications are far more tame than they could be, and more tame than what the US openly accepts from the manufacturers themselves.
If a bike is modded for hooning and to break the law, that person is damaging the e-bike world for all of us. But a person improving their e-bike and being responsible about it, I would have no issues with.
Hi Altema. Thanks for that explanation - makes perfect sense. I too have seen plenty of regular bikes blasting down bike paths, passing walkers and other bikers, with what seems to be no regard for others' safety. The challenge is how to encourage better road manners for all, since it is too easy for towns to just blame e-bikes. I'm not sure how to encourage better ridership, but it seems like we need to do something.
Quote from: mtngrl on February 26, 2022, 06:13:13 AMI'm not sure how to encourage better ridership, but it seems like we need to do something.
Keep a thick stick in hand to shove into their spokes when they blow by you. ;)
Quote from: mtngrl on February 17, 2022, 08:03:27 AM
OK, so let me start by saying I love my Radrunner Plus and love to ride. The whole e-bike industry has been a great thing for many riders. But I am trying to understand why so many owners are ready to mod their bikes as soon as they get them to make them go faster. I know, speed is fun, biking is fun. But if you want something that goes really, really fast - buy something designed for that speed, and drive it in a safe and legal way. Every time I turn around I see cities and towns banning e-bikes on bike paths and trails because riders are not respecting speed limits and are causing safety concerns. As an e-bike community, let's make sure our choices and behaviors support the industry and encourage local communities to embrace and encourage e-bike ridership rather than find new reasons to ban us!
I'm sure this post may kick up some strong opinions. I'm all ears and welcome respectful and constructive exchange.
This isn't exclusive to e-bikes or at least not in the USA. People put ridiculous not street legal mods on their cars here but it kind of goes below the radar. I'm not against that if they act responsibly.
The problem with e-bikes is they're new and with anything new people have fear because they don't know about it. It's just like when cars came out people were scared that they were a danger to horses and many were against them. If e-bikes ever become popular or somehow get mainstream attention that's when governments will look into regulating them. All it's going to take is a fatal accident where an e-biker hits a pedestrian at 50 MPH on the sidewalk and there's going to be some serious motor vehicle like restrictions and requirements to operate one.
The current class 1, 2 and 3 is a vague outline but isn't even close to being enough. I think if e-bike companies were smart they would get ahead of this and create better standards as to what is an e-bike and what is an electric motorcycle (e-motorcycle?). This would keep motorcycles off bicycle paths and allow a better relationship between e-bikers and traditional cyclists. Right now that's not such a good relationship because of this fear I talked about. More clear standards and information would prevent this.
Quote from: mtngrl on February 26, 2022, 06:13:13 AM
Hi Altema. Thanks for that explanation - makes perfect sense. I too have seen plenty of regular bikes blasting down bike paths, passing walkers and other bikers, with what seems to be no regard for others' safety. The challenge is how to encourage better road manners for all, since it is too easy for towns to just blame e-bikes. I'm not sure how to encourage better ridership, but it seems like we need to do something.
I agree, and I'm not completely sure how to encourage better ridership either, but perhaps it starts by being good examples.
Quote from: Slowrider on February 26, 2022, 02:52:28 PM
Quote from: mtngrl on February 17, 2022, 08:03:27 AM
OK, so let me start by saying I love my Radrunner Plus and love to ride. The whole e-bike industry has been a great thing for many riders. But I am trying to understand why so many owners are ready to mod their bikes as soon as they get them to make them go faster. I know, speed is fun, biking is fun. But if you want something that goes really, really fast - buy something designed for that speed, and drive it in a safe and legal way. Every time I turn around I see cities and towns banning e-bikes on bike paths and trails because riders are not respecting speed limits and are causing safety concerns. As an e-bike community, let's make sure our choices and behaviors support the industry and encourage local communities to embrace and encourage e-bike ridership rather than find new reasons to ban us!
I'm sure this post may kick up some strong opinions. I'm all ears and welcome respectful and constructive exchange.
This isn't exclusive to e-bikes or at least not in the USA. People put ridiculous not street legal mods on their cars here but it kind of goes below the radar. I'm not against that if they act responsibly.
The problem with e-bikes is they're new and with anything new people have fear because they don't know about it. It's just like when cars came out people were scared that they were a danger to horses and many were against them. If e-bikes ever become popular or somehow get mainstream attention that's when governments will look into regulating them. All it's going to take is a fatal accident where an e-biker hits a pedestrian at 50 MPH on the sidewalk and there's going to be some serious motor vehicle like restrictions and requirements to operate one.
The current class 1, 2 and 3 is a vague outline but isn't even close to being enough. I think if e-bike companies were smart they would get ahead of this and create better standards as to what is an e-bike and what is an electric motorcycle (e-motorcycle?). This would keep motorcycles off bicycle paths and allow a better relationship between e-bikers and traditional cyclists. Right now that's not such a good relationship because of this fear I talked about. More clear standards and information would prevent this.
Yes, people are quick to be afraid and condemn "new things". It's almost amusing to see a couple walking on a mixed use trail, and moments after they ignore a regular bike passing them, I'll approach at a slower speed than the regular bike did. I ring my cute little bell and announce "Passing on your left", and see the couple rush completely off the trail with one "protecting" the other in a defensive stance against the evil e-bike 🙄.
I think the three classes are pretty well defined, and in most US states if a two wheeler can do 30mph it's a moped, if it goes over 35mph, it's a motorcycle. The problem is lack of consistency in regulations from one location to another, and things that are 100% legal in some states are completely illegal in others. Then there's the independent rules for some trails, with odd things like asking you to disconnect your throttle because... why?
In an ideal world, a person would have two bikes: A class 1 or 2 for wherever bicycles are allowed, and a moped or motorcycle for high speed use. There's really no in-between where I live, as you either ride on sidewalks and trails with bikes and pedestrians, or you ride on the road and mix it up with the cars. There are companies with electric mopeds, like the Spark Cycleworks Bandit which comes with a VIN and all the safety equipment required for mopeds out of the box, and they will even program it specifically for the laws in your state. That would be a good option for some who want that 35mph top speed, but don't want to pay for motorcycle insurance.
Quote from: Altema on February 27, 2022, 08:08:16 AMYes, people are quick to be afraid and condemn "new things". It's almost amusing to see a couple walking on a mixed use trail, and moments after they ignore a regular bike passing them, I'll approach at a slower speed than the regular bike did. I ring my cute little bell and announce "Passing on your left", and see the couple rush completely off the trail with one "protecting" the other in a defensive stance against the evil e-bike 🙄.
That happens to me occasionally around here; we have a lot of fear-porn people who cower at many things, including reacting as you describe on bike/horse/walking trails. It's both amusing and annoying, and seems to be correlated with those who feel compelled to strap on their face diapers when outdoors in the sunshine and fresh air, even along the beach.
I'd say just ignore them, but these are the same Karens who get silly local laws passed against the many things they're unreasonably fearful of, so we should remain aware.
Quote from: Altema on February 27, 2022, 08:08:16 AM
Quote from: Slowrider on February 26, 2022, 02:52:28 PM
Quote from: mtngrl on February 17, 2022, 08:03:27 AM
OK, so let me start by saying I love my Radrunner Plus and love to ride. The whole e-bike industry has been a great thing for many riders. But I am trying to understand why so many owners are ready to mod their bikes as soon as they get them to make them go faster. I know, speed is fun, biking is fun. But if you want something that goes really, really fast - buy something designed for that speed, and drive it in a safe and legal way. Every time I turn around I see cities and towns banning e-bikes on bike paths and trails because riders are not respecting speed limits and are causing safety concerns. As an e-bike community, let's make sure our choices and behaviors support the industry and encourage local communities to embrace and encourage e-bike ridership rather than find new reasons to ban us!
I'm sure this post may kick up some strong opinions. I'm all ears and welcome respectful and constructive exchange.
This isn't exclusive to e-bikes or at least not in the USA. People put ridiculous not street legal mods on their cars here but it kind of goes below the radar. I'm not against that if they act responsibly.
The problem with e-bikes is they're new and with anything new people have fear because they don't know about it. It's just like when cars came out people were scared that they were a danger to horses and many were against them. If e-bikes ever become popular or somehow get mainstream attention that's when governments will look into regulating them. All it's going to take is a fatal accident where an e-biker hits a pedestrian at 50 MPH on the sidewalk and there's going to be some serious motor vehicle like restrictions and requirements to operate one.
The current class 1, 2 and 3 is a vague outline but isn't even close to being enough. I think if e-bike companies were smart they would get ahead of this and create better standards as to what is an e-bike and what is an electric motorcycle (e-motorcycle?). This would keep motorcycles off bicycle paths and allow a better relationship between e-bikers and traditional cyclists. Right now that's not such a good relationship because of this fear I talked about. More clear standards and information would prevent this.
Yes, people are quick to be afraid and condemn "new things". It's almost amusing to see a couple walking on a mixed use trail, and moments after they ignore a regular bike passing them, I'll approach at a slower speed than the regular bike did. I ring my cute little bell and announce "Passing on your left", and see the couple rush completely off the trail with one "protecting" the other in a defensive stance against the evil e-bike 🙄.
I think the three classes are pretty well defined, and in most US states if a two wheeler can do 30mph it's a moped, if it goes over 35mph, it's a motorcycle. The problem is lack of consistency in regulations from one location to another, and things that are 100% legal in some states are completely illegal in others. Then there's the independent rules for some trails, with odd things like asking you to disconnect your throttle because... why?
In an ideal world, a person would have two bikes: A class 1 or 2 for wherever bicycles are allowed, and a moped or motorcycle for high speed use. There's really no in-between where I live, as you either ride on sidewalks and trails with bikes and pedestrians, or you ride on the road and mix it up with the cars. There are companies with electric mopeds, like the Spark Cycleworks Bandit which comes with a VIN and all the safety equipment required for mopeds out of the box, and they will even program it specifically for the laws in your state. That would be a good option for some who want that 35mph top speed, but don't want to pay for motorcycle insurance.
I just think the class thing looks like some e-bike exec had their kid write it up. If you look at any other motor vehicle classification system it's not just three sentences. It's like they're not taking it seriously and that's my issue. How this usually works is when companies don't take stuff like this seriously it leaves governments wanting to step in. It's a good start but I think it needs to be better. What I don't want to see is some politician that doesn't know anything about e-bikes making some law.
I think part of it could be e-bikes are usually more significant looking. Sure you have those stealth e-bikes that look normal but for example my RadCity 5 looks much more impressive. I think it's up to all of us to try and be on our best behavior since e-bikes are newish and sometimes you might be the first experience that person has with someone on an e-bike. I try to be overly friendly and so far I've gotten positive responses. If someone has a rotten attitude like a Karen I don't engage but just smile and say "Good morning" or whatever.
A big issue that's going to hit the fan with e-bikes is mods. I know I'm going to get some hate for this one. For example out of the box Rad bikes have a top speed of 20 MPH but with a few easy mods you can get that to 30 MPH. That's a significant increase in speed. Of course with a little bit of $$$$ it's not hard to bring it over 50 MPH. This combined with no system of enforcement is just a bad situation.
I'm really not against modding and I want a super fast e-bike but at what modification level do you say that's not allowed on a multi use trail with pedestrians and how do you even enforce that? Before it was simple because if it had a motor it wasn't going on the sidewalk but an electric motor is treated differently. I've seen a video of a guy with I want to say was a 2k watt e-bike getting questioned by the police and they didn't know how to deal with it. He just said it was 750 watts and the cops were clueless. He wasn't doing anything bad because he was on the road but it just shows it's like the wild west when it comes to regulations and laws. I worry it's going to swing far the other way and e-bikes will only be allowed where other motorized vehicles can travel. I guarantee you my local police officers don't know what class 2 means and would have no way to verify mine is indeed such a bike other than the sticker. Do a quick search on Amazon for "Class 2 ebike sticker" and you'll see how meaningless that sticker is.
I wonder if when cars first came out people had these same discussions... Obviously not online 🤣
Great post, mtngrl. I just finished watching a slew of horrifying YouTubes of mass riders in California tearing up the streets on e-bikes that are really just motorcycles that happen to use a battery instead of gas (ask the infuriated public if they care where all the power comes from). My take-away is, thanks to these people, we're doomed. Registration, restrictions, and FEES are sure to come.
Well said.
Quote from: Slowrider on March 02, 2022, 09:28:00 PM
What I don't want to see is some politician that doesn't know anything about e-bikes making some law. I think part of it could be e-bikes are usually more significant looking. Sure you have those stealth e-bikes that look normal but for example my RadCity 5 looks much more impressive. I think it's up to all of us to try and be on our best behavior since e-bikes are newish and sometimes you might be the first experience that person has with someone on an e-bike.
Quote from: NaturallyRC on March 03, 2022, 08:35:34 AM
Great post, mtngrl. I just finished watching a slew of horrifying YouTubes of mass riders in California tearing up the streets on e-bikes that are really just motorcycles that happen to use a battery instead of gas (ask the infuriated public if they care where all the power comes from). My take-away is, thanks to these people, we're doomed. Registration, restrictions, and FEES are sure to come.
Yeah bad behavior like this tarnishes it for everyone in that group regardless if it's fair or not. It's like when someone in a sport bike (motorcycle) acts like an idiot. Most people say yup another idiot on a crotch rocket. I really hope this doesn't happen with e-bikes. If manufactures want to save this they need to set clear differences and standards.
What is my Class 2 RadCity called after I mod it to go 40 MPH? Is it still an e-bike? I'd call it a moped, scooter, or motorcycle but I'm not anyone with the authority to do this. We must make a distinction between low powered e-bikes that compare to pedal bikes and more powerful ones that compare to a scooter or even motorcycle. This is not to bring any hate to the more powerful ones because we should encourage them too! I think an e-bike/ e-moped like device that can go 40 MPH would be the ideal thing for city roads. Classify those as road only vehicles while slower e-bikes and pedestrians can go on multi use trails.
Just to be clear I know we have class 1, 2 and 3 but what classification is a modded RadCity that goes 40 MPH? It's not a motorcycle and you can't get plates for it at least in my state. I'm not aware of it meeting any classification at that point and even the 1-3 thing isn't adopted nationwide in the USA. As I set before we need an actual set standards that doesn't look like someones kid typed it for their homework assignment. I think e-bikes will soon become a serious vehicle for transportation. Just to clarify I can't speak for you guys in other countries because I have no idea what the e-bike situation is there so if what I'm saying doesn't apply to where you live then maybe it's fixed there.
Quote
I wonder if when cars first came out people had these same discussions... Obviously not online 🤣
Actually when cars first came out it was much much worse. Cars were killing people left and right. Children being the biggest victim. Roads were not originally built for cars. They were for horses, pedestrians, carts and bicycles.
So agree. I'm the last one to call for more laws (really) but motorcycles ought to be regulated like...wait for it...motorcycles. People who want motorbike-like
speed and acceleration should get a license and insurance, and ride where motorbikes are allowed (self-included). Gas, battery, flux capacitor -- all pointless distinctions. Until transportation officials wise up to a growing problem, the public cannot be blamed for wanting all powered two-wheelers kicked off trails and paths. Which is sad.
Quote from: Slowrider on March 03, 2022, 05:17:49 PM
We must make a distinction between low powered e-bikes that compare to pedal bikes and more powerful ones that compare to a scooter or even motorcycle. This is not to bring any hate to the more powerful ones because we should encourage them too! I think an e-bike/ e-moped like device that can go 40 MPH would be the ideal thing for city roads. Classify those as road only vehicles while slower e-bikes and pedestrians can go on multi use trails.
Quote from: NaturallyRC on March 04, 2022, 05:36:43 AM
So agree. I'm the last one to call for more laws (really) but motorcycles ought to be regulated like...wait for it...motorcycles. People who want motorbike-like speed and acceleration should get a license and insurance, and ride where motorbikes are allowed (self-included). Gas, battery, flux capacitor -- all pointless distinctions. Until transportation officials wise up to a growing problem, the public cannot be blamed for wanting all powered two-wheelers kicked off trails and paths. Which is sad.
Quote from: Slowrider on March 03, 2022, 05:17:49 PM
We must make a distinction between low powered e-bikes that compare to pedal bikes and more powerful ones that compare to a scooter or even motorcycle. This is not to bring any hate to the more powerful ones because we should encourage them too! I think an e-bike/ e-moped like device that can go 40 MPH would be the ideal thing for city roads. Classify those as road only vehicles while slower e-bikes and pedestrians can go on multi use trails.
Well I think it comes down to what classification the vehicle is in. I'm not sure it's sensible to put an e-bike/ moped or whatever it's called that can go 40 MPH in the same classification as a motorcycle that can go 100 MPH. I think many states have something like a moped classification that doesn't require vehicle registration or license but you can't ride it on the sidewalk. I don't think making more red tape for someone to own or operate is the answer but perhaps some operational guidelines and vehicle classifications.
This has become a very interesting thread. It makes me wonder what niche do ebikes serve?
I have a motorcycle and a Rad Mini ST. To legally ride the motorcycle here in Washington State, I have to take a class (or two) and pass one (or two) driving tests. I have to have a motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license. The bike has to be licensed and I have to carry insurance. Because of the risks of injury, I ride with a full-face helmet, leather jacket with enforced armor, reinforced riding jeans, ankle-high riding boots and reinforced riding gloves. It's about $1000 of riding gear.
To ride my Mini, I throw on my jeans, sweatshirt and bike helmet. No training, no licenses, no insurance. Off I go, out to the park or down to the store.
Now, upgrade the Mini to do 40 mph. It's likely that we'll find ourselves under the same regulations as the motorcycle rider. And I'm more likely to don a lot more gear at 40 mph. (I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).
At that point, I'm just going to ride the motorcycle and skip the ebike.
To avoid this, I think people need to have a clear understanding of what an ebike is and the niche it serves as a transportation device that maxes out at 20mph.
Quote from: mtblair on March 04, 2022, 09:10:17 AMNow, upgrade the Mini to do 40 mph. It's likely that we'll find ourselves under the same regulations as the motorcycle rider. And I'm more likely to don a lot more gear at 40 mph. (I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).
Fortunately, upgrading an e-bike to hit 40 mph isn't as simple as just replacing the stock controller with a higher-amperage model (as I'm about to do for my MiniST with the Bolton upgrade to get more torque for hill-climbing and acceleration in traffic) - to increase top speed beyond the (unlocked) factory capability of about 25 mph with 750 watts, you need a new battery that outputs higher voltage as well as a new controller - the motor will spin faster with higher voltage, not higher amperage. With proprietary Rad batteries, that's not so simple; the battery mount and wiring has to be reworked as well as the battery. People do it, but they're more mechanically-talented than the average e-bike owner. Check out CitizenCycle's YouTube channel for the 2-wheel-drive and battery mods he's made to a stock Rad Rover, for instance. Now he's got an all-terrain beast.
Beyond riding at a much higher speed and being obnoxious about it, my biggest concern is the original design of the bike - frame materials and geometry, weld quality and especially the brakes are probably designed for loads and stresses up to maybe 30-35 mph or so, to provide a safety margin well above normal riding. A heavy rider on a 40+ mph Mini would be a handful at that speed if the frame gets squirrelly over a rough surface or if a quick stop is needed. That's small-motorcycle territory, as you've pointed out.
I'd be on your side if I thought there were a sure-fire way to keep that 40mph moped out of the bike lane and off the sidewalks. At the same time, confusion increases exponentially with every new sub-category, and people are going to throw rotten tomatoes at ebikes they mistake for mopeds on public trails. Hard to blame the tomato tossers. Cheers.
Quote from: Slowrider on March 04, 2022, 08:17:31 AM
I'm not sure it's sensible to put an e-bike/ moped or whatever it's called that can go 40 MPH in the same classification as a motorcycle that can go 100 MPH. I think many states have something like a moped classification that doesn't require vehicle registration or license but you can't ride it on the sidewalk. I don't think making more red tape for someone to own or operate is the answer but perhaps some operational guidelines and vehicle classifications.
An expert opinion worth remembering. Thumbs up.
Quote from: mtblair on March 04, 2022, 09:10:17 AM
(I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).
Quote from: mtblair on March 04, 2022, 09:10:17 AM
Now, upgrade the Mini to do 40 mph. It's likely that we'll find ourselves under the same regulations as the motorcycle rider. And I'm more likely to don a lot more gear at 40 mph. (I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).
At that point, I'm just going to ride the motorcycle and skip the ebike.
To avoid this, I think people need to have a clear understanding of what an ebike is and the niche it serves as a transportation device that maxes out at 20mph.
I don't work in an ER but I've had one 35 MPH road rash and plenty of slowish 10-15 MPH road rashes and I can tell you there's a SIGNIFICANT difference... That 35 MPH road rash was over 20 years ago and it still makes me cringe thinking about it. This is one reason I'm not in a big hurry to make my Rad go faster.
One thing many people don't understand is even a small increase in speed from 20 MPH to 30 MPH makes a big difference. It's only 50% faster when it comes to speed but it's over double the impact force when you crash. Perhaps someone with more knowledge in physics can explain why this is but it's a real thing so take it seriously if you decide to go faster. Perhaps wear more protection or use a bit more caution.
I'm baffled by the logic of those who want extreme speed on their e-bikes, and chalk it up to over compensation.
My RR6+ hits 20 like it's nothing, 23 to 25 downhill, and i've gotten it up to 27.5 pedaling downhill, and jesus h, that was fast enough.
Maybe it's because I'm 50 and not 25 anymore, but i still do stupid stuff like jumping over dirt hills, but i also use the bike to commute to work, and sure, i'd love to get there more quickly, but instead of modding my bike up to an unsafe speed, i just take my car if i'm in that much of a hurry.
i just don't get it, and agree that these sorts of things are gonna eff it up for the rest of us - i feel like i'm back in the '80 when we had the "skateboarding is not a crime" campaign, and 35 years later, towns and cities are now building skate parks for skaters.
Things like this cause problems with ebike riders
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/brooklyn-woman-dies-after-getting-hit-by-e-bike-rider/ar-AAUUdHD
Quote from: Slowrider on March 02, 2022, 09:28:00 PM
I just think the class thing looks like some e-bike exec had their kid write it up. If you look at any other motor vehicle classification system it's not just three sentences. It's like they're not taking it seriously and that's my issue. How this usually works is when companies don't take stuff like this seriously it leaves governments wanting to step in. It's a good start but I think it needs to be better. What I don't want to see is some politician that doesn't know anything about e-bikes making some law.
I think part of it could be e-bikes are usually more significant looking. Sure you have those stealth e-bikes that look normal but for example my RadCity 5 looks much more impressive. I think it's up to all of us to try and be on our best behavior since e-bikes are newish and sometimes you might be the first experience that person has with someone on an e-bike. I try to be overly friendly and so far I've gotten positive responses. If someone has a rotten attitude like a Karen I don't engage but just smile and say "Good morning" or whatever.
A big issue that's going to hit the fan with e-bikes is mods. I know I'm going to get some hate for this one. For example out of the box Rad bikes have a top speed of 20 MPH but with a few easy mods you can get that to 30 MPH. That's a significant increase in speed. Of course with a little bit of $$$$ it's not hard to bring it over 50 MPH. This combined with no system of enforcement is just a bad situation.
I'm really not against modding and I want a super fast e-bike but at what modification level do you say that's not allowed on a multi use trail with pedestrians and how do you even enforce that? Before it was simple because if it had a motor it wasn't going on the sidewalk but an electric motor is treated differently. I've seen a video of a guy with I want to say was a 2k watt e-bike getting questioned by the police and they didn't know how to deal with it. He just said it was 750 watts and the cops were clueless. He wasn't doing anything bad because he was on the road but it just shows it's like the wild west when it comes to regulations and laws. I worry it's going to swing far the other way and e-bikes will only be allowed where other motorized vehicles can travel. I guarantee you my local police officers don't know what class 2 means and would have no way to verify mine is indeed such a bike other than the sticker. Do a quick search on Amazon for "Class 2 ebike sticker" and you'll see how meaningless that sticker is.
I wonder if when cars first came out people had these same discussions... Obviously not online 🤣
I don't think we need to make e-bike classes more complicated. The more complicated a regulation, the harder it is to enforce. Class 1 and 2 e-bikes are not even motor vehicles in most states, and when someone questions the "No motorized vehicles" sign on bike paths, I just let them know our bikes are exempt because they are, and the law clearly states it. I had a police car pace me a few weeks ago, and there was no reason for them to ask questions because I was going my usual 10 to 14mph. But if they had questions beyond my original Rad sticker, I could easily show them my configuration which is clearly set to limits of 20mph and 750 watts. Most of the time in parks, I don't even use the throttle; just pedal assist at about 275 to 350 watts with an average speed of 11mph.
It's not what you ride, but how you ride that becomes the problem. I live near Detroit Michigan, and we have weekly group rides in and around the city (which is remarkably clean now, BTW). We keep our act together and enjoy ourselves without attracting attention, usually passing a half dozen police who either smile or greet us. The only noteworthy incident was when some outsiders tried to join in and were acting like idiots on Lime rental scooters, directly causing an accident with bloody injuries. Meanwhile the people in our group, including those on Onyx RCR's, were riding responsibly.