THERE HAS BEEN ALOT OF TALK ABOUT THE ROVER'S MOTOR LATELY AS TO WHETHER IT IS A TRUE 750 OR A 750 WANNA BE. HOW CAN WE PUT THIS TO REST??
I've heard its a 500 or 600 watt motor "bumped up" to 750. I'm happy with the performance of my RadRunner 1 as is. It's fast enough and since we have no hills it does what I need, and what I expected.
I got the RadRover 5. I was a little disappointed in the power. I find it a bit weak for a $1,500 bike. No power for hills. I think it's even under powered on level ground. Maybe I expect to much. The only way to get more torque would be to spend a couple hundred on a controller / display upgrade. I may just do that once the warranty is up.
Jim
Quote from: jbfoster on October 14, 2020, 10:23:45 PM
I got the RadRover 5. I was a little disappointed in the power. I find it a bit weak for a $1,500 bike. No power for hills. I think it's even under powered on level ground. Maybe I expect to much. The only way to get more torque would be to spend a couple hundred on a controller / display upgrade. I may just do that once the warranty is up.
Jim
[/quote, Just a thought regarding a power upgrade, if in fact the Rad 750 watt motor is in fact a 500 that is a 750 wanna be, then if a different controller is installed to increase the power to an already increased motor, would that cause the motor to perform at a level it is not designed to perform at, which could lead to excessive heat buildup and possible early failure. One would think a total motor and controller upgrade would be safer..
It is comparable to the 500 watt nominal/750 watt peak Bafang motors. So it technically is a 750 watt motor in that it peaks at 750 watts. The problem is there is no standardization across brands in the way they advertise. Thus if they give one motor wattage amount, I always assume that is the peak watts going to the motor. Of course if they give two numbers it's usually nominal (or sustained) and then peak - which is preferable.
The controller will output a max of 1,680 watts to the motor with the stock 48 volt battery. In the 35amp controller you can set the max watts to the motor.
Jim
I know that, electrically speaking, the motor will do 750 watts for extended periods. I have one grade on my route that's a half mile long and 110 feet high, and the RadMini 4 pulls me right up. I also have a short 28% grade, and stay in my seat on the way up.
There's a perception issue because Rad bikes have smooth power delivery, and that's harder to achieve than raw and jerky power delivery. Are there replacement motors that are wired for more torque? Yes, but at the expense of extra weight and battery drain. And while some may place importance on drag racing (I'm a licensed race driver actually), remember that longevity, reduced weigh, and smoothness are also important to some people. The Rad motor gets me up to top speed and holds it there until the battery gives up, and pulls me up every hill I encounter, so I don't mind the refined approach.
I'll probably upgrade mine eventually, but know that won't change the legal speed limit, and I'll still be cruising along at 20 mph like I was before any upgrades. Besides, I've got my modified and lowered 160mph hatchback for "fun" when I need it ;)
Quote from: Altema on October 16, 2020, 10:06:49 PM
I know that, electrically speaking, the motor will do 750 watts for extended periods. I have one grade on my route that's a half mile long and 110 feet high, and the RadMini 4 pulls me right up. I also have a short 28% grade, and stay in my seat on the way up.
There's a perception issue because Rad bikes have smooth power delivery, and that's harder to achieve than raw and jerky power delivery. Are there replacement motors that are wired for more torque? Yes, but at the expense of extra weight and battery drain. And while some may place importance on drag racing (I'm a licensed race driver actually), remember that longevity, reduced weigh, and smoothness are also important to some people. The Rad motor gets me up to top speed and holds it there until the battery gives up, and pulls me up every hill I encounter, so I don't mind the refined approach.
I'll probably upgrade mine eventually, but know that won't change the legal speed limit, and I'll still be cruising along at 20 mph like I was before any upgrades. Besides, I've got my modified and lowered 160mph hatchback for "fun" when I need it ;)
Great comment. People shouldn't dwell on these motor details too much. There isn't anyone I've met who rides a Rad for the first time that doesn't come away impressed with the power. For 95% of people it's going to get the job done.
With not many hills here where I live in Finland, the 750W peak power gives me more than enough torque and speed. And 90% of the time PAS level 3 is enough to ride the bicycle comfortably for me. But I'm happy to know there is that extra kick still available when I need it, f.ex. strong headwind and/or soft surface (snow, sand).
But does someone know if using the peak power 750W for a long period of time make some extra wear to the motor? Of course the battery drains pretty quickly, maybe not so good thing too.
It is not. Here is a photo of the internal motor from my US RadRover purchased in July 2021. It is in fact a 350W Bafang motor disguised in a Rad Power Bikes outer motor casing. Disappointing since it's advertised as a 750W "motor".
I realize it might be able to peak at 750W but it's still a 350W motor any way you slice it.
It's also only rated at a MAXIMUM torque of 45 N.m on Bafang's website. Rad advertises 80 N.m.
https://bafang-e.com/oem-area/components/component/motor/rm-g020350ddc/
My 2019 my RadRhino EU 750W version got the G060.500 500W motor, checked it from the Bafang customer service. I'm planning to open it soon after some 4000 km on it, so I can add new grease to the gears and check everything is still good. Interesting to see if therr is similar model and mfd stamps on mine too.
Lähetetty minun LYA-L29 laitteesta Tapatalkilla
Quote from: chris1683 on September 15, 2021, 09:52:39 AM
It is not. Here is a photo of the internal motor from my US RadRover purchased in July 2021. It is in fact a 350W Bafang motor disguised in a Rad Power Bikes outer motor casing. Disappointing since it's advertised as a 750W "motor".
I realize it might be able to peak at 750W but it's still a 350W motor any way you slice it.
It's also only rated at a MAXIMUM torque of 45 N.m on Bafang's website. Rad advertises 80 N.m.
https://bafang-e.com/oem-area/components/component/motor/rm-g020350ddc/
That's not the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, but it is possible your clutch plate was substituted since they are interchangeable, or someone shipped you a EU spec bike despite you ordering a US version. The G020350 is a physically smaller motor.
A genuine Rad 750 watt motor is built on the Bafang 500w core, but is custom wound for higher power using a . There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque. I didn't get that off the internet or pre-build data sheets... I'm an engineer and tested it myself. As a matter of fact, the US Rad motor has more torque than the Bolton upgrade motor, and is more reliable.
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Quote from: JimInPT on September 25, 2021, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PMI was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine.
Would you mind linking to a thread where you spec out the upgrade parts, controller, display etc? I may have run across it already, but it's lost in the mists of my ever-older brain. Thanks.
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: JimInPT on September 25, 2021, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.
I understand peak versus sustainable. I was questioning the "it will handle 1641 watts all day long" statement.
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PM
Quote from: chris1683 on September 15, 2021, 09:52:39 AM
It is not. Here is a photo of the internal motor from my US RadRover purchased in July 2021. It is in fact a 350W Bafang motor disguised in a Rad Power Bikes outer motor casing. Disappointing since it's advertised as a 750W "motor".
I realize it might be able to peak at 750W but it's still a 350W motor any way you slice it.
It's also only rated at a MAXIMUM torque of 45 N.m on Bafang's website. Rad advertises 80 N.m.
https://bafang-e.com/oem-area/components/component/motor/rm-g020350ddc/
That's not the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, but it is possible your clutch plate was substituted since they are interchangeable, or someone shipped you a EU spec bike despite you ordering a US version. The G020350 is a physically smaller motor.
A genuine Rad 750 watt motor is built on the Bafang 500w core, but is custom wound for higher power using a . There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque. I didn't get that off the internet or pre-build data sheets... I'm an engineer and tested it myself. As a matter of fact, the US Rad motor has more torque than the Bolton upgrade motor, and is more reliable.
Whether or not it was the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, that's what came inside of my brand new RR5. It came in a US labeled box and the controller peaked at 750W which is what the US version is touted as having.
As far as interchanging parts, I find that hard to believe as nothing else on the motor would tell what version that it is. It has no distinct "Rad" labeling on the inner motor itself. The only thing "Rad" about the motor was the custom outer casing that the motor was fitted into.
I would expect any reasonable person to question what they are getting when they open a supposed 750W motor and find a motor in its place that's stamped as being a 350W motor. I just call it as I see it. Rad was given the same photos and they offered no information as to it being a non-US version bike. They also would not confirm whether it was a 350, 500 or 750 watt motor as it was designed, only that their motors can "handle" 750W of power.
Rad went as far as to have Bafang draw up a letter which said the following: "the customized motors made by Bafang exclusively for Rad are rated as 750W geared hub motors
based on the testing standard that this customized motor can handle 750W of power input without overheating"
In plain terms, I read that as we can run 750W to it and it won't hurt it, so we can rate it as 750W. That being said, if I take a core 350W motor and run 750W through it, it still doesn't make it a core 750W motor - regardless of whether or not it can safely handle the extra wattage.
Again, this would never be an issue to me except that the motor on my RR5 is stamped as being a 350W motor.
Last I just wanted to share another reply from someone over at Rad's Legal Team regarding this same issue. In the letter it stated "
Neither the CPSC regulations on ebikes nor the industry standard (UL 2849, the voluntary industry standard for safety for electrical systems for ebikes) specifies a test methodology for measuring the power input/output of a motor: As a result, both the regulation and the voluntary standard rely on the certification seeker (Rad, in this case) to establish the motor rating."
According to that standard, you can start with any sized core motor - a 350W per say, and if it can handle 750W and not overheat....Hey we can label it as a rated 750W motor and sell it that way! Is it now technically a 750W motor or is it sill a 350W as it was made? That is the real question. If it can handle 1000W is it then a rated 1000W geared hub motor?
To further cloud the issue, I recently saw a simple add-on "mid-drive motor" that uses the crank housing as the mount point. Wouldn't that be a beast? Why not also add a front motor too?
I've also seen YT's of folks using a Bafang internal motor, placed into the direct drive, and a planetary gear motor. The replacement being MUCH BEEFIER!
RPB is very lax in giving out specifics on specifications.
I've talked to the HexLox guys, they can't get specifics on the RPB bolts. I'd have to measure every bolt diameter, to get a full set of locks. That's just a simple reciprocal agreement to give each other better service. Just call & say "I have an RW4", they could offer you a complete set. WHY NOT?
Quote from: DickB on September 29, 2021, 09:29:29 AM
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: JimInPT on September 25, 2021, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.
I understand peak versus sustainable. I was questioning the "it will handle 1641 watts all day long" statement.
That would be real world use, and not on a dyno. In real world use it's impossible to sustain that figure because you will either reach the programmed top speed and the controller will pull back power, or the motor will approach it's no-load RPM and the power usage will fall off naturally. Now if you are going mountain climbing at full throttle, that would be an exception, but I don't know of anybody that would do that. I have done extended hill climb tests, holding the throttle wide open for several minutes at a time, and the Bolton motor (RM G060.750.D 06) got hotter than the Rad motor. So even though it won't handle 1641 watts all day long on a dyno or other artificial environments, in actual use you can set the power levels that high and never have a problem.
Quote from: chris1683 on September 29, 2021, 10:11:32 AM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PM
Quote from: chris1683 on September 15, 2021, 09:52:39 AM
It is not. Here is a photo of the internal motor from my US RadRover purchased in July 2021. It is in fact a 350W Bafang motor disguised in a Rad Power Bikes outer motor casing. Disappointing since it's advertised as a 750W "motor".
I realize it might be able to peak at 750W but it's still a 350W motor any way you slice it.
It's also only rated at a MAXIMUM torque of 45 N.m on Bafang's website. Rad advertises 80 N.m.
https://bafang-e.com/oem-area/components/component/motor/rm-g020350ddc/
That's not the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, but it is possible your clutch plate was substituted since they are interchangeable, or someone shipped you a EU spec bike despite you ordering a US version. The G020350 is a physically smaller motor.
A genuine Rad 750 watt motor is built on the Bafang 500w core, but is custom wound for higher power using a . There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque. I didn't get that off the internet or pre-build data sheets... I'm an engineer and tested it myself. As a matter of fact, the US Rad motor has more torque than the Bolton upgrade motor, and is more reliable.
Whether or not it was the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, that's what came inside of my brand new RR5. It came in a US labeled box and the controller peaked at 750W which is what the US version is touted as having.
As far as interchanging parts, I find that hard to believe as nothing else on the motor would tell what version that it is. It has no distinct "Rad" labeling on the inner motor itself. The only thing "Rad" about the motor was the custom outer casing that the motor was fitted into.
I would expect any reasonable person to question what they are getting when they open a supposed 750W motor and find a motor in its place that's stamped as being a 350W motor. I just call it as I see it. Rad was given the same photos and they offered no information as to it being a non-US version bike. They also would not confirm whether it was a 350, 500 or 750 watt motor as it was designed, only that their motors can "handle" 750W of power.
Rad went as far as to have Bafang draw up a letter which said the following: "the customized motors made by Bafang exclusively for Rad are rated as 750W geared hub motors based on the testing standard that this customized motor can handle 750W of power input without overheating"
In plain terms, I read that as we can run 750W to it and it won't hurt it, so we can rate it as 750W. That being said, if I take a core 350W motor and run 750W through it, it still doesn't make it a core 750W motor - regardless of whether or not it can safely handle the extra wattage.
Again, this would never be an issue to me except that the motor on my RR5 is stamped as being a 350W motor.
Last I just wanted to share another reply from someone over at Rad's Legal Team regarding this same issue. In the letter it stated "Neither the CPSC regulations on ebikes nor the industry standard (UL 2849, the voluntary industry standard for safety for electrical systems for ebikes) specifies a test methodology for measuring the power input/output of a motor: As a result, both the regulation and the voluntary standard rely on the certification seeker (Rad, in this case) to establish the motor rating."
According to that standard, you can start with any sized core motor - a 350W per say, and if it can handle 750W and not overheat....Hey we can label it as a rated 750W motor and sell it that way! Is it now technically a 750W motor or is it sill a 350W as it was made? That is the real question. If it can handle 1000W is it then a rated 1000W geared hub motor?
If you're not happy with the bike then send it back. You turn the throttle and get 750 watts, and Rad stands behind it with a full warranty. I really don't see the issue. I'd be concerned if it was Super73 RX claiming 2000 watts peak, and it gets blown away by a RadMini. I'd be concerned if it was a Lectric XP and kept shutting off due to overheating. I'd be concerned if it was an Ariel Rider Grizzly, and BOTH controllers and the motor failed doing what the bike is advertised to do. But a bike that is doing it's job, and being more reliable than many competitors, is not a big deal.
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: JimInPT on September 25, 2021, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.
Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?
Quote from: mbates50 on October 03, 2021, 03:04:19 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: JimInPT on September 25, 2021, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.
Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?
You can call it what you want, but I'll put it this way: The stock Rad motor handles power better than the Bolton upgrade motor.
I have three failed Bolton motors. The stock Rad motor is still working like new.
Fun fact: Did you know that Kyle, the owner of Bolton E-bikes, the one who made the video to sell his motors, does not know the specifications of his own motor or the Rad motor? Seriously. I asked him directly and he had no idea. He does now, but only because I measured it and sent the information back to him.
Quote from: Altema on October 04, 2021, 05:59:54 AM
Quote from: mbates50 on October 03, 2021, 03:04:19 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: JimInPT on September 25, 2021, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.
Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?
You can call it what you want, but I'll put it this way: The stock Rad motor handles power better than the Bolton upgrade motor.
I have three failed Bolton motors. The stock Rad motor is still working like new.
Fun fact: Did you know that Kyle, the owner of Bolton E-bikes, the one who made the video to sell his motors, does not know the specifications of his own motor or the Rad motor? Seriously. I asked him directly and he had no idea. He does now, but only because I measured it and sent the information back to him.
Thanks. Apparently from what you are saying, the Bolton 35A controller will most likely have no affect on the OEM Rad Rover motor. Is that correct? ( your fun fact is not surprising!!!)
Quote from: JimInPT on September 28, 2021, 09:49:20 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PMI was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine.
Would you mind linking to a thread where you spec out the upgrade parts, controller, display etc? I may have run across it already, but it's lost in the mists of my ever-older brain. Thanks.
Here's my "review" of the 22 amp controller upgrade, however I don't think it includes a parts list. I thought I did make a list, but I can't find it after searching. Perhaps I'll throw a list together. The bike is on it's 5th controller and motor now, lol.
https://www.radowners.com/index.php?topic=589.0
Quote from: mbates50 on October 04, 2021, 04:23:57 PM
Quote from: Altema on October 04, 2021, 05:59:54 AM
Quote from: mbates50 on October 03, 2021, 03:04:19 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: JimInPT on September 25, 2021, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: DickB on September 23, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
Quote from: Altema on September 23, 2021, 02:04:34 PMThere is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.
I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.
Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor. In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.
Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.
Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?
You can call it what you want, but I'll put it this way: The stock Rad motor handles power better than the Bolton upgrade motor.
I have three failed Bolton motors. The stock Rad motor is still working like new.
Fun fact: Did you know that Kyle, the owner of Bolton E-bikes, the one who made the video to sell his motors, does not know the specifications of his own motor or the Rad motor? Seriously. I asked him directly and he had no idea. He does now, but only because I measured it and sent the information back to him.
Thanks. Apparently from what you are saying, the Bolton 35A controller will most likely have no affect on the OEM Rad Rover motor. Is that correct? ( your fun fact is not surprising!!!)
The Bolton 35A controller will most likely have no negative effect on the OEM Rad Rover motor. I ran that combination for 400 miles, and I was pretty abusive. If it was someone else's bike, I'd be ashamed of myself 😄
PS: Kyle is a great guy, and helped me a lot with the KT-LCD3 display settings at first. I was just surprised.
Altema, would you mind posting a summary list of your mod parts for the upgrade? I think it's just a Bolton 35A controller and display, right? (If so, did you go with the newer color display and is it readable in sunlight?) I'm getting a bit lost in all the various threads and postings. And do I remember you modded a MiniST like mine? Did you have to rework any connectors or other wiring?
And if not too much trouble, a couple pics of the controller/display mountings would be helpful. Yep, I'm willing to let you do all the R&D work for us. ;) But if it makes you feel any better, I've posted a number of pics and tips along the way on other topics......
I can tell you that the Bolton KT8 display, (color), is very readable in SoCal sunlight.
Quote from: mbates50 on October 07, 2021, 12:35:42 PM
I can tell you that the Bolton KT8 display, (color), is very readable in SoCal sunlight.
Thanks! They currently mention a color display model LCD8H as part of their upgrade. Hope it's similar, but haven't ordered yet.
UPDATE 9 Oct: Just ordered the upgrade kit for delivery in January. Watched a few CitizenCycle and Bolton vids and had a chat session with Bolton, seemed to answer all my questions. I think the only issues will be daylight visibility of the color display and a clean mounting arrangement for the new controller - considering using a "controller box" made of plastic Chineseium for water resistance and appearance, but concerned about heat buildup if I go that route.
Kyle's company Bolton seems to be doing pretty well; glad to see that.
Quote from: Altema on October 04, 2021, 04:28:17 PM
Here's my "review" of the 22 amp controller upgrade, however I don't think it includes a parts list. I thought I did make a list, but I can't find it after searching. Perhaps I'll throw a list together. The bike is on it's 5th controller and motor now, lol.
https://www.radowners.com/index.php?topic=589.0
I just ordered the 35A controller/display upgrade from Bolton to lash onto my MiniST (probably after the warranty expires in March, and not expecting delivery on the upgrade until January anyway); could have gotten cheaper elsewhere but I've gotten so much from Kyle's vids and wanted to kick back a little bit. A little concerned the display cable shipping now might still be a bit too short, but I'll find out when it gets here and pinged Bolton to inquire about that issue to see if it still exists.
Now I'm speculating - with all the motors/controllers you've tried, have you ever noticed any problems as a result of the significantly-increased torque? Specifically, loose or bowed spokes, excessive tire wear - that sort of thing? My guess is that there's enough design margin in the wheels to handle a bit more, but how much more would be the issue.
Thanks!
Hey Jim, no worries. My first stage was just the 22A controller and the monochrome LCD display (KT-LCD3). I upgraded from the 22A to the 35A controller after that, but kept the same display, and the rest of the bike was completely stock. I never had the color display, so I have no comment on daylight visibility. My mods are on a RadMini 4 (2021 version), and the only change I made to the wiring is t extend the cable for the display. The wire coming out of the controller for this is a bit short on the RadMini, and although I made it work by suspending it with a cable ties below where it was supposed to go, I eventually ended up making the cable longer.
The 35A controller is water resistant, and with it mounted so the wires were on the bottom, I had no problems riding in the rain or spraying the controller directly with the hose. You won't "need" the box, but if you do get one, the controller is big enough to soak up lots of heat before it has any issue. Mine never overheated, and the only issue associated with it getting wet is the label coming off.
I've had no issue with the wheel taking the extra torque. The rim is double walled and the spokes are 12 gauge stainless stell, so pretty heavy duty. I did have to adjust some of the spokes, but that was due to me doing small jumps, and encountering a huge hidden hole in the grass while riding off road at high speed (my rear end hurt for hours!). Regarding torque; my new motor puts out 104nm of torque at 2000 watts, and the wheel and bike handles it fine. Rad's are overbuilt, and the only special precautions I took with the new motor is preloading the axle in the frame, and adding an extra torque washer.
Below are some pictures of the 35A controller and display on my bike.
Additional photos (would not let me post on prior message).
Quote from: Altema on October 09, 2021, 10:06:02 PM
Below are some pictures of the 35A controller and display on my bike.
Thank you very much! I did some more digging and turned up your review thread on this from a year or so ago - well done and informative. Glad to find that the noise issue is somewhat improved in the 35A vs the 25A controller. I think I'm still capable of cutting/splicing/shrinkwrapping cables, but hope I don't have to, and don't have a controller to cannibalize - will keep the existing hardware intact as spares. I plan to pull the new cable in place of the existing one, through the inside of the frame (the ST is different from the Mini4 in that respect) and it sounds like it might be a problem, but we'll see. If I'm lucky, the path length of the ST might even be a bit shorter than the stepover Mini4, but the ST controller mounts behind the seat post, negating some of that. I suppose I'll know more in three months when it's supposed to ship to me.
My MiniST performs sufficiently-well for my needs; an upgrade is desirable only for those occasions where I'd like a little extra torque help doing hill climbs. The Mini can do them now, but a couple hills in our town are a severe challenge even with 750w and pedaling to the best of my aging ability in 2nd or even 1st gear. I usually just take different routes around them.
I also kept my original controller and display intact, just in case, and I might use it to build a new e-bike. I cleaned out our shed and garage months ago, threw away 6 partial bikes, and I regret it now!
I'm surprised the new controller is going to take that long to arrive, but once it's in, you won't need to go around those hills 😊
One of the nicer features of the 35A controller is the cruise control. Although I felt it took too long to engage, it works really well... far better than the attempted cruise control on the Phaserunner.
Quote from: Altema on October 10, 2021, 12:32:18 PM
I also kept my original controller and display intact, just in case, and I might use it to build a new e-bike. I cleaned out our shed and garage months ago, threw away 6 partial bikes, and I regret it now!
I'm surprised the new controller is going to take that long to arrive, but once it's in, you won't need to go around those hills 😊
One of the nicer features of the 35A controller is the cruise control. Although I felt it took too long to engage, it works really well... far better than the attempted cruise control on the Phaserunner.
Yes, the Bolton website is currently quoting Jan 2022 shipments. That's ok; I don't think I'll make the mod until after the warranty expires on the bike in March, if I can stand to wait, and I do like the option for cruise control when distance traveling. Snow on the ground might help ease that urge to make changes before warranty expiration; so far the bike's been pretty flawless.
Maybe you can help me understand what comes with the upgrade, after I had a bit more thought Would I re-use the existing cable that runs between the stock controller and the stock display - is the connector the same at both ends for the upgrade display and controller? If so, no length problems for the ST model, I think, unless I'm misidentifying the cables without cutting the wireties under the frame.
Bolton's website page for the upgrade is lacking in details, I think; a photo of all the parts in the kit would be nice - if it includes a cable to run along the frame between controller and display (meaning I wouldn't be reusing the existing cable), I might indeed have a length problem. Is that what you found in the box - a long extension cable between them, with different-from-stock connectors, or just the short pigtails on each part that reuse existing frame wiring?
It would also be nice if Bolton had a printable set of details about all the various parameters that can be set and/or changed in the programming. Kyle helpfully includes recommended settings, and his video goes into more detail, but I think I'll be making my own reference sheet for tuning after installation.
Thanks again!
The kit has a pigtail on the display and controller, and you use the existing wiring. At one point in my testing, I had two controllers on the bike, and just turned it off and swapped connections for the tests!
If you like, I have a complete list of controller settings (more complete than the manual), and I can send those to you when you are ready. I had to experiment and find out some of their functions because nobody knew, but the bike worked very well with them.
Quote from: Altema on October 10, 2021, 09:56:10 PM
The kit has a pigtail on the display and controller, and you use the existing wiring. At one point in my testing, I had two controllers on the bike, and just turned it off and swapped connections for the tests!
If you like, I have a complete list of controller settings (more complete than the manual), and I can send those to you when you are ready. I had to experiment and find out some of their functions because nobody knew, but the bike worked very well with them.
Well, that's a relief! As I hoped it would be. Should be no issue at all for the ST then, as the cable to the display exits the frame just below the controller, and the existing controller pigtail is longer than necessary, coiled up with a ziptie - the upgrade should be the same. I recall your mention of two controllers strapped together for testing; that's about as simple as it could be - thanks for the update.
Sure, I'd love to have your info on settings, but don't make extra effort; I've watched Kyle's video from 2018 I think, and that was pretty clear, so I figured I'd rewatch it and just make notes for reference, if the controller design hasn't changed.
Thanks again.
Quote from: Altema on October 10, 2021, 09:56:10 PM
If you like, I have a complete list of controller settings (more complete than the manual), and I can send those to you when you are ready. I had to experiment and find out some of their functions because nobody knew, but the bike worked very well with them.
Small breakthrough - I found a complete programming settings manual, I think, and it seems to be for the models we use (I expect the settings apply to your non-color display version as well):
https://www.emotoer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/KT-LCD8H.pdf
it's linked from https://www.emotoer.com/kt-lcd8h-display/ (https://www.emotoer.com/kt-lcd8h-display/)
Haven't read every page, but it looks complete albeit in "Chinglish" so a little interpretation will be needed.
The equivalent product page https://www.emotoer.com/kt-lcd3-display/ (https://www.emotoer.com/kt-lcd3-display/) for the non-color KT-LCD3 display only links to the basic, simple 2-page settings document, not a full manual like the one above.
By the way, does the taillight-flashing feature work with the 35A controller? You know, when you push the button on the bottom of the light assembly it flashes for visibility, whether or not the headlight is turned on? I remember to activate that almost every time I ride, although I've also added one of these (which is terrific and HIGHLY recommended, strapped up high to the spring assembly frame on the underside of my Cloud 9 seat): https://amzn.to/30TQWpu
I believe the flashing feature does work same as stock. I tried it once or twice.
When you receive the kit from Bolton you will find an install sheet as well as recommended settings.